Phase 2 - Real Estate 101 (How to or one big idea)

Podcast - Economic Analysis Of Real Estate, Part 2

Tyler Stewert
August 29, 2021
Podcast - Economic Analysis Of Real Estate, Part 2

Episode 6 of the Fundamentals of Commercial Real Estate Investing is now available on your favorite podcast listening platform. In this episode, RealCrowd Co-Founder & CEO, Adam Hooper, goes even deeper on the current economic climate and how it will impact real estate investing with Michael Madsen, Economics Director at RealSource.

Michael Madsen, a Client Services representative since 2005, has participated in workshops around the nation in the National Association of Real Estate Investors, as well as analyzing multi-family properties and doing market due diligence for RealSource.

RealSource was established in 1989 with the central focus of putting our investor clients in the right place, at the right time, to help insure their maximum profitability. Putting the investor in the right geographical location in the right economic conditions is the heart of location investing and what we call "Prime Time Investing."

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Tyler Stewart - Hey, listeners. This is Tyler with RealCrowd. Welcome to Part 2 of the Economic Analysis of the Real Estate Market.

RealCrowd - This podcast is brought to you by RealCrowd, the leader in online real estate investing. Visit to learn more about how we provide our members with direct access to commercial real estate investments. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, Google Music, or Soundcloud. RealCrowd, invest smarter.

Adam Hooper - It's definitely that double-edged sword, right, that you can be the beneficiary in a multi-family world of some of these, I guess, more challenging economic times, right. Because houses become less affordable. Because people need to live somewhere, right? You know, if the housing market, if there's a challenge with its interest rate environment, apartments, as a, from a cash flow perspective, oftentimes can be the beneficiary of that, because you're getting higher occupancies where people can't go out and purchase a home anymore, right? That's an interesting kind of tangential benefit, I guess, if you will. Not to be cynical about it, but it's...

Mike Madsen - It's really the middle class, I mean, specifically in the RealSource realm, we're B class apartment owners and we recognized several years ago, we sold a few A classes and started buying B, because B class rents nationally grew at about 6%, and A class grew at about two. So there's a big difference, and we'll talk about that later. When we talk about, man, we really need tax reform. The reason that apartment investors should be cheering for tax reform is because it's the middle class, it's our residents that need tax break and tax reform. If people are keeping more of the money that they make, and keeping it in their pocket, then that's certainly good for them, and it's certainly good for our industry. It's good for household formation. We've got a record number of like 15 million people or more and their kids basements have... If you look at the statistics of 20 to 34-year-olds, and how more 20 to 34-year-olds of 2020 ever has. More than anything, people's incomes, if you look at average median household incomes, it's a bit flat, stagnant for maybe 10, 15 years. And that's the goal. And what people realize is Wall Street's been bailed out a little bit, and investors have done well those five years, but Main Street, just working class people have not seen their incomes growing. They've seen things get more expensive. So kind of the hope out there is that we're going to see some rising incomes. Just to give you one nugget of key information, and maybe they don't want me spilling the beans on this. But we're really focused on where are incomes growing, because there's plenty of markets out of the 275 we tracked where it's just flat. But you'd be surprised on how many areas and how many MSAs are seeing incomes rise. In fact, I would say if you look at change in median household incomes, it's probably a more important factor than job growth right now. 'Cuz a lot of these big job growth metros have problems with the supply coming online, so that's definitely one thing we're looking at. And we think that this tax reform could be good for people, and you could start to see incomes rise as unemployment the labor market gets tighter, more people can go out and get a new job, or ask for raise, and see their incomes naturally grow. So that's one thing we're excited about right now, 'cuz we've already seen changes in the last year or two, we've seen that finally pick up, and we're finally seeing average income start to grow at a healthy pace,

Adam Hooper - which is really good for us. Good. I know one of the things, Mike, when we spoke last, that I found very interesting was we were talking about some of these different risk metrics that you guys are looking at. You touched on the state by state risk and you're talking about taxes, not necessarily at the federal level, but the state level. Some states have challenges that others might not when they look at their tax base or their just health of the state as a potential market to look in. Can you take just a couple of minutes to kind of talk through how you guys look at the state by state issues?

Mike Madsen - Yeah, definitely. Last time I talked to you on the phone, I kind of used this example, and it's a great example. You know, you go over to Europe and look at Northern Europe or Southern Europe, Portugal, Italy, versus Germany, or some of these other countries in Europe, people can easily distinguish that there's a big difference between Greece and Germany. In the United States, we're the United States, and we've got a significant advantage going, but sometimes it'll be easier, it's easier to just kind of lump all of the states or all the locations around the country, and just kind of say, well, how is housing doing in the US? When really once you break it down to the next level New York is very different than Texas, Florida is very different than Colorado, New Jersey is times like these, that's really magnified, probably the biggest reason being kind of the state debts, the state liabilities. Some states are spending twice as much money as they're bringing in. And some states are bringing in more money than they're paying out to their liabilities, and this is going to shake out and be a big story kind of not just in the US, but around the world, as some of these debt issues need to get resolved. And a lot of it is pension liabilities, and kind of the cat's getting out of the bag that not all of these public or private pensions are solvent. We're finding out that the current pension systems are at, like, 30 to 40% solvent. A lot of the reason for that being is because 15, 20 years ago, somebody put this stuff together an account of, that they could get an average of 8% interest, and basically didn't forecast a decade plus of interest rates at near zero. So it's a huge issue. It's not something people like to talk about. It's not something you'll see a lot of people talk about. But it's going to be a big issue in the next three to four years, and you're going to see states like Illinois that are going to struggle, and to cover these liabilities, they're going to have to raise taxes, not just taxes on businesses or earners, but specifically property taxes.

Adam Hooper - And that has a direct impact to, talking about this forecasting and some of these risk factors if you're seeing property tax rise, that's going to directly affect your bottom line, right, as a real estate owner.

Mike Madsen - Oh, absolutely. I can tell you from being an underwriter, somebody that analyzes and underwrites 10 different deals a week a whole lot of times you get a deal and everything's looking good, and it's almost like, oh man, this is almost too good to be true. I'm happy to find this one. Everything's great. But then send it off to our in-house tax assessor. We have someone in our office who specifically, one of their hats is to understand property taxes. He has different key sources around the country to help guide him so that we can accurately forecast property taxes. And you'll get the property tax estimate back, plug it in, and it just kills the whole deal. And we're very, very, very savvy at RealSource at understanding property taxes and accounting for worst-case scenario and hoping for the best, and...

Adam Hooper - And that's, obviously that's much more impactful in a multi-family environment versus an office or a retail environment, where typically you see the tenants paying their proportionate share of the taxes, right? Or if it's a single tenant dwelling...

Mike Madsen - Oh, absolutely, yeah.

Adam Hooper - ...they pay all the taxes. So the multi-family, you as the, as a sponsor, typically that cost isn't directly paid by the tenants, right? That's paid as almost an operating expense, if you will.

Mike Madsen - Yeah, absolutely. And there's, there's some, some investors, some markets out there that this rise in property taxes is going to make them sink or swim. So one thing we track is what is the state GDP versus debt ratios. But we also kind of look on, okay, well, where does this state stack up in property taxes versus the other 49 states? And sometimes you've got to be careful, because if it's the most favorable state for property taxes, but they've got this huge debt obligation problem they're not going to be the number one state for property taxes...

Adam Hooper - For very long.

Mike Madsen - Right?

Adam Hooper - Right, right.

Mike Madsen - And you have places like Texas that it's, like we already got dinged by property taxes. We've already, Texas is notorious for heavy property taxes, but the good news is investors have already baked that into... their models and, and their underwriting. We've kind of already taken our medicine on property taxes in the state of Texas. So it's going to be a big deal. It's going to surprise people. You know, I don't know how much people pay attention to kind of some of these other real estate markets around the world, but look at Vancouver. You know, Vancouver had so much foreign capital, so much foreign money just coming in and buying stuff and paying all cash, and eventually, the locals said okay enough is enough.

Adam Hooper - Right.

Mike Madsen - And they levied a huge tax on foreign investors, and boom, as soon as they did that, everything went on the market for sale the next day, prices had come down. I mean, it's...

Adam Hooper - Yeah, it was incredible. That was such a real-time shift, right? That this tax was levied, and then it was just almost instantaneous how much of an impact that had on what had been just a crazy runup market with all that foreign capital coming in, the impact of a tax like that was just, it was pretty interesting to watch how quickly that can impact that activity and the overall velocity of that market.

Mike Madsen - What the market giveth, the market taketh, and that's one of our favorite quotes around here. Things are awesome when those foreigner institution buyers...

Adam Hooper - Right.

Mike Madsen - ...are in your market and driving up prices and driving down caps, and everybody's feeling good. But, you know...

Adam Hooper - As a seller, right?

Mike Madsen -'s a double-edged sword. Yeah.

Adam Hooper - It's great when you're a seller, yeah.

Mike Madsen - So we've watched that quite a bit. I mean, there were some markets to where we looked at it and we'd go, oh goodness, look at these high cap rates. You know, we'd seen a tickup in institutional or foreign buying and we knew that the cap rates were going to go from 7% down to five and a half or six real fast. And we've actually been able to time it pretty good to where we've bought in a market, and sure enough, a year and a half later we're buying at a seven cap, and now we can sell at a six cap. So we do track that. Certainly there are some markets out there to where we've seen the institutional funds or the foreign funds come in and drive that cap rate down. And you want to be in that market before that happens, not after, because some of these cap rates have maybe been artificially low because of that reason.

Adam Hooper - Right.

Mike Madsen - You want to be careful of that, because you don't want to buy at a five cap, and a year later it's you're selling at a six. You're going the wrong way.

Adam Hooper - How do you guys... we talked a little bit about the kind of macro global perspective, right, and some about the more local issues. How do you guys reconcile what's going on at a state level with what's going on at the local level, or how do you guys look at those issues or weights what's going on federally or across the country and then once you get down to the actual markets, submarkets that you're looking at, where do you place those emphasis on those different metrics or different things you guys track?

Mike Madsen - It definitely changes year to year. You know, it's been a good six-year run nationally that's got a lot of people confident, but at the same time people are nervous. You know, people that lost money in the downturn are probably the most sensitive, as they should be, and it has a lot of people kind of giving pause and wondering what's going to happen. But, I mean, primarily our specialty is focused on the MSA level, and we don't weight a lot. We have a few state measure things that we weight in heavy to our data only rankings, but... You know, definitely right now, the cap rates is a big, big thing, because it kind of overrules all the other factors in some of the markets. You know, there's some markets to where we see that they're poised for continued growth, and they're maybe only in the fifth inning of a nice little bull run. But cap rates are so low that we can't play in that sandbox because we're not going to get our investors the returns they need. I mean, maybe if you're a speculate buyer, or maybe you're just a family office, and you want to go buy an apartment and you want to own it for 25, 30 years, and you want to go buy it with 50% LTB, then you're not so worried about buying it at four cap. You just want to get into the market.

Adam Hooper - Right.

Mike Madsen - You want to be in and ride it out long-term. But for RealSource, and I'm sure most of your RealCrowd clients are the same, is exit strategy's very important. And that's a whole nother topic that we can talk about later, next time, and specifically you need an exit strategy, and most of our investors like to be in a deal for about five years. Sometimes it can go seven. You know, sometimes we have a property that does so well that got all our money back and more, and they just decide, hey, let's hold onto this. It's been great, it's been good to us, so we'll hold onto it for seven years, even though we've releveraged and refinanced along the way to get the equity out... work in a different market. But it's definitely, definitely a time where you have to pay attention to what's going on nationally. You have to pay attention to the cap rates. You know, most people, or a lot of people don't understand what's driving cap rates or why cap rates didn't bottom in 2014 or why they're continuing to go down. And a lot of it is kind of that capital flow and that national demand. Because there's such strong demand for apartments out there. That's what's going to continue to hold down cap rates even in a rising interest rate environment. So each year it changes how we weight those, but certainly there's a few big factors that are overruling in a time in the cycle like this.

RealCrowd - Thanks again for listening to the RealCrowd podcast. If you like what you're hearing, please visit to learn more and subscribe at iTunes, Google Music, and Soundcloud. RealCrowd, invest smarter.

Adam Hooper - You mentioned this kind of core markets. And we've seen it, obviously, and investors are aware of this. The dichotomy between a core market and what we would consider maybe secondary or tertiary markets where you've got a ton of institutional capital, foreign capital, chasing assets in primary markets. San Francisco, Seattle, New York, LA. You know, the kind of more traditionally core markets. And then you've got other markets around the country where the institutions aren't necessarily buying yet when you're talking about cap rates. And you mentioned earlier, obviously with your model specifically, it's, the goal is to try to get into a market where you can buy at a seven and a half, eight cap before those institutions, before the other international buyers get there. Are you starting to see more of that institutional capital, more of that foreign capital, starting to look outside of those primary markets in an effort to try to get to some more yield where you see cap rates going a little bit higher? Can you kind of comment on where you're seeing that capital flow now?

Mike Madsen - Yeah, definitely. That's definitely the trend is a lot of these not just institutional, but some of the bigger family offices that like owning in a primary market are recognizing that there's much more yield in a secondary market. You know, we talked about rising interest rates, kind of that spread between the 10-year rate, your cap rate or your cap value, cap rate on your property. The more spread between that the less risk you have. So that's one reason to be focused on, markets with more favorable cap rates. But for investors that want to be in and out of an investment in three to five years, you don't have time to just bank on or speculate on appreciation, and you've got to go out there and earn those returns. You've got to do something to improve the property costs. You know, fix up the amenities or fix up the interiors to try to earn those new market rents. And certainly we're seeing more competition in more, some of the secondary markets. You know, there's a few kind of primary/secondary markets that we spend less time in because there's so many other big buyers that'll come in and close quick and put money down day one and do a few things, take risks that we don't necessarily take. But yeah, it's, we've definitely seen a lot of competition. Maybe three or four years ago, I could go to a secondary market and we'd put in an offer and there'd be you'd ask the broker how many offers did you get? And they usually always said five for some reason. They always, how...

Adam Hooper - That's always a number, yeah.

Mike Madsen - But now it's like we got 15, or you really can kind of hear it in their voice and kind of see it, they're like we got 24 offers on this property. I've got a good buddy in college who's one of the biggest, best apartment brokers in the Salt Lake market, and we talk, and we've been on a few deals that his firm's taken to market. And he's told me frankly, he'll say, we'll go to lunch and talk, he'll say we really did get 24 offers on that property.

Adam Hooper - Wow.

Mike Madsen - You know, it's even, you look at the Salt Lake market, Salt Lake is a great market to own in. A lot of rent growth, a lot of affordability, a lot of good jobs. But we can't get in, because so many other people...

Adam Hooper - Right.

Mike Madsen - ...are willing to overpay, so...

Adam Hooper - And how deep do you think that goes? I mean, Salt Lake City is a great example. You look at Denver, you look at some of the Midwestern cities, those have always historically been considered secondary markets at best, I would think. We've seen in the last several years those start to become more of a target for these institutions. How deep does that go? I mean, are we going to see institutions going all the way into what we would consider more tertiary markets? Or is it going to, is there a point at which that train kind of stops?

Mike Madsen - The demand for apartments in the secondary markets like Denver, Salt Lake, is going to stay very strong for a long time. You know, we recognize kind of the threats out there on a global or national level. The bubble right now isn't debt. The bubble's in bonds. And always got to remember that there's multiple of money in bonds. I mean, there's, like, five, some people say 10 times more money in the bond market than the stock market. And so that'll kind of depend on kind of how we talked about interest rates rising for bad reasons. If we see turmoil in the bond market, we see a sudden rush to the exits. Then we could see it get even crazier than it is now. I mean, there could be there could be more money chasing apartments than there are apartments, and that's that's when you can actually see this weird part of the cycle to where interest rates maybe do jump up and are, jump up fast, but the same time it's going to cause so much turmoil, and because people are rushing out of bonds and that big money needs a place to park that it could push cap rates down even further short-term. The demand for apartments in secondary markets is really kind of only in the first quarter of what you're going to see in the next four-plus years.

Adam Hooper - You've got interesting pressures, right? Beacause you've got these kind of coastal primary markets where you're seeing caps in the, even down into the fours, right? Like you mentioned before. And then you've got secondary markets where you're still seeing opportunities in that six-plus range or even higher, right? Depending on when you're getting in and how much institutional capital is coming into those markets. Do you think we'll see some normalization between those two ranges, between that spread between more of your primary markets...

Mike Madsen - Yeah.

Adam Hooper - ...and your secondary markets?

Mike Madsen - Yeah.

Adam Hooper - That'll kind of come to, Normalize somewhere in between there?

Mike Madsen - Yeah, exactly. I mean, you picture those the cap rates on your coastal cities in the fours, and you take your cap rates on your strong secondary markets, and then you just imagine on a graph those two lines coming closer together. That means that you're going to see values decline on a lot of these three-cap, four-cap metros. You know, some of the bigger gateway, New York, San Francisco, those caps'll stay low 'cuz they'll...

Adam Hooper - Somewhat protected, yeah.

Mike Madsen - Yeah, there'll be so much big money chasing those. But you could see some other markets that are kind of flashing red signs on the affordability index to where the rents have outpaced the income growth to where that's kind of what we're seeing. That's kind of why we've been kind of seeing for about a, the last year, it's like, this is the time for RealSource, because when all the markets are going up, people pay less attention to RealSource, but when all the sudden half the markets are going up and growing at 5% rent growth, and maybe we have five of the biggest 10 cities, the values are going down, that's an interesting part of kind of the big cycle here. That's when you're going to have big time winners and big time losers, and times like these is when we think people should focus on a company like RealSource that spends so much time and so much money identifying these trends and threats, and more importantly, identifying the right target markets.

Adam Hooper - So much of that as, again, we started the conversation with, is data and your access to this data. You know, how has that changed, or what kind of, what same things do you see in terms of the technology that you guys are using or data that you're using to forecast? Fascinating how you guys use that. Where do you see that going in the near future with your access to these different data points and that impact?

Mike Madsen - It's going to be interesting, because a lot of these big firms like CoStar and maybe Reese, Axiometrics, Globe Street there's a bunch of them out there. Some of them are really good at kind of using pure scientific models that are pretty good at telling you what's going to happen next month, but they're not as good at seeing a sharp turn in the market, or they're not as good at seeing, like, an external force or threat and unpacking it. So, like, for instance, if we were following a lot of these third-party data sources, they would have told you in 2009 that things are turning down and you'd better sell. Well, that was like, okay, well, smart people knew in 2007, so...

Adam Hooper - Right.

Mike Madsen - And it's not, it's not a knock against them. I mean, they're out there trying to forecast a trend occupancy and rent growth in 200 or 100 markets, so they've got to come up with a scientific way to put it all together. But I really look at what RealSource does. I mean, we're beasts. We're Axiometrics. We're CoStar. We have all that data. We have all that access. We follow their reports. We review their economists. So we feel like we have everything all those companies have, but we have so much more because we have experience, we have the relationships, we have the boots on the ground, we have the years on the ground. So forecasting these trends, we've, like, been picking markets. It's kind of cliche, but we like to say that it's not just a science, but it's an art, too. And many people out there that have maybe been traders working on Wall Street can get it, a lot of being a trader is having this instinct and this intuition, hearing things before they happen, things like that. So it's good to get the data we're getting, but really the key is knowing what to do with all the data you have. You know, there's just, there's so much more to measuring a market other than supply and demand and job growth. And we go so far beyond that in depth that we like to think that we can kind of see turns and changes and trends in the market before they happen. In fact, last year, we had a meeting and we presented some information to the whole company, and we were able to forecast that rents were going to plateau and decline in New York and San Francisco about six months before they did. We were able to forecast that B class rents were going to grow at double the pace that A class was, and it did. So we've been pretty excited to see how our forecasts have turned out, and it's pretty exciting, because we seem to kind of get better and better at it as we go.

Adam Hooper - And now, so as an LP investor someone that's using RealCrowd, and they're looking at these deals, obviously they don't have as much access or ability or knowledge to do all this forecasting. You know, what are some tips or some things that you might be able to help when they're looking at these deals. How can they start thinking about these things again getting back to this whole risk-adjusted concept and trying to think of some of these bigger picture issues, how can an investor that's looking at these different opportunities start to think about these things differently?

Mike Madsen - Well, I'd definitely try to find a sponsor that's been in business for a long time. I'd try to find somebody like RealSource. I mean, we're certainly not, aren't the only major research firm out there that does this, and we have respect for a lot of the other sponsors out there. But this really is a time to where you've got to weight risk and location, location, location into what you're doing. And what we have going at RealSource is our track record. You look at our track record and what we've done, and you look at what we've bought, what we bought at four and what we sold at four. You know, we have a tremendous track record of doing these value-adds. I think value-add is a nice cushion to be in right now. It gives you, you know, when you're able to utilize capital structures and debt to where you can go and spend the capital if these properties need to add the value, and we're able to do that value-add kind of strategy. It definitely is a cushion in there for you. That's one thing we're focused on. But overall I'd say people need to ask questions. There's no reason that a sponsor shouldn't be able to answer any question that an investor has. I mean, we really enjoy talking to investors. Investor/clients. A lot of what we've learned is from talking to very seasoned investors, and it seems like we learn something new every day. So get on the phone, ask the tough questions, understand and factor in the loan to value, loan to cost if it's a value-add. If you're taking on a risky LTV, like, a 90% LTV, and you're not doing a value-add, well, that's extremely risky. Especially when occupancies are above 90 and could kind of go back down. If you're buying a property that's at 85% occupancy at a 90% LTV maybe that makes sense, but I would advise people to, more than anything, more than anything, analyze the risk of the debt structure. You know, is it a floater rate? Is it a three-year loan? Is it a five-year loan? Is it a 10-year? You know, ask questions like how are the stress tests on the investment. You know, what can the occupancy level go to before it stops cash flowing? You know, ask them how they're able to cut costs. If you buy a new property, are you able to cut costs from what the previous owner did? Does it make sense to cut those costs, or what's the cost of the property in the long run? But certainly, as I said, more than anything you just need to look at the risk of the debt structure, because we're in not just a rising interest rate environment, but we're kind of dealing with this debt bubble... around the world which made things go a little bit wild, and you want to be protected, you know? People want to make money in real estate when there's inflation, and a lot of people probably invest into these deals, maybe they invest most of their money somewhere else, and they go to RealCrowd and say maybe I should take this 100 grand and put it in something that's good inflationary hedge. That's smart, but if you really aren't experienced, you don't understand the underwriting of these deals, give us a call. We're happy to answer your questions or walk you through kind of different deal and debt structures and break it down for you, but...

Adam Hooper - That's the last couple episodes of the podcast have been focused on sponsor and the relationship of the sponsor, and that's something that we take very good pride in here at RealCrowd is the caliber of groups that we work with and the sponsors that are using the platform and Michael Episcope a couple episodes ago said you pick the jockey, not the horse. And that's, very, very true is the caliber of the sponsors you're working with. You know, they're the ones that you're trusting as an investor to make those decisions and to make the right call at the asset level. So I couldn't agree more, definitely.

Mike Madsen - Absolutely, yeah, absolutely.

Adam Hooper - Ask the tough questions. That's good advice, for sure. So, Mike, that's a really good spot to break for our conversation today. Lots of really, really good information in there. Is there anything else as a wrap-up that you'd like to share with investors, or anything we didn't touch on that you'd like to cover real quick?

Mike Madsen - Right now's a good time if you're kind of on the fence or thinking of jumping into the market, do it now before there's a change in interest rates. Apartments are/is probably one of the safest investment sectors you can be in right now. You know, hard, tangible assets will rise with the more trouble we have in the debt markets. And, you know, if you can get in now and you can get into a good project that has maybe a 10-year loan with a locked low rate, a healthy LTV. Do it now. Jump in the game now. Because you could regret waiting. And interesting statistic that I'm sure maybe you guys look at is right now retail participation in the equities markets, specifically the stock market, is the average person has not jumped back into the stock market. A lot of money sitting on the sidelines, which is going to change, but unfortunately most people are going to rush in kind of after things have taken off and they've seen a lot of kind of big-time growth and people are hearing, oh man, did you see how those guys tripled their money in three years doing this or that, and then they jump in. But this is the time to be in equities. You want to diversify, of course, but when it comes time to lock in a loan and lock into some debt, do it this year, not next year.

Adam Hooper - What's the saying, the best time to plant a tree was yesterday and the next best time is today, right?

Mike Madsen - That's right.

Adam Hooper - Got to get in. Good. Well, Mike, look, we really appreciate your time today. I'm sure we could've spent a few more hours digging in in-depth on some of these issues, and we'd love to have you back on soon and do a deeper dive into some of these things that we touched on today. But really appreciate your time and look forward to many conversations in the future.

Mike Madsen - Yeah, it's been a lot of fun. I'm definitely passionate about real estate investing and the opportunities and what's happening in the market, so it's been fun talking with you guys and great working with you guys. You guys are definitely the leader in crowdfunding. And I've had a chance to talk to a lot of different clients that use your services, and we've asked around and said, hey is this the only one you've used? They said, no, I've tried a few different crowdfunding sources, and RealCrowd's the best. You know, RealCrowd keeps in touch. They give me the data that I need. You know, they care that I'm getting into an investment that's going to work. So hats off to you guys. Keep it up. Because you guys are going to be big-time. You guys are going to be a household name and a very, very large company in the future, and I'm glad to get to know your guys.

Adam Hooper - Yeah, well, we appreciate that. And to the listeners out there, we didn't even have to pay Mike for that plug, so we appreciate the kind words, and we'll talk to you on the next one.

RealCrowd - This podcast is brought to you by RealCrowd, the leader in online real estate investing. Visit to learn more about how we provide our members with direct access to commercial real estate investments. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, Google Music, or Soundcloud. RealCrowd, invest smarter.

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