Phase 2 - Real Estate 101 (How to or one big idea)

Podcast - Current Lending Environment For Real Estate

Tyler Stewert
September 14, 2021
Podcast - Current Lending Environment For Real Estate

Jamie Woodwell, VP of Research & Economics at Mortgage Bankers Association, joined us on the podcast to discuss the current lending environment for commercial real estate.

Jamie is Vice President in the Research and Economics group at the Mortgage Bankers Association (MBA), where he oversees MBA's research and related activities covering the commercial and multifamily real estate markets.  

Jamie and his work are regularly cited in the media, on Capitol Hill and in regulatory settings.  He is a regular speaker at industry and corporate events; has appeared on CNBC, Bloomberg and in other popular and trade press; and testified before the Congressional Oversight Panel for TARP.  Jamie initiated many of MBA's research activities, and created MBA's Peer Business Roundtables and the CREF Careers program


If you'd like to learn more about the research done at Mortgage Bankers Association check out the links below:

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RealCrowd (00:00):
All opinions expressed by Adam, Tyler, and podcast guests are solely their own opinions and do not reflect the opinion of RealCrowd. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a basis for investment decisions. To gain a better understanding of the risks associated with commercial real estate investing, please consult your advisors.

Jamie Woodwell (00:23):
Lenders have been through a number of different downturns, and one thing we've looked at is how different the 2001 recession was from the global financial crisis to this one, all driven by different factors, all very different shapes, and all impacting different commercial real estate in different ways.

Adam Hooper (00:49):
Hey Tyler?

Tyler Stewart (00:50):
Hey Adam, how are you today?

Adam Hooper (00:52):
Tyler, I'm doing well. I'm doing well. It's early October. Fall is falling, and we're back in the studio with a friendly voice.

Tyler Stewart (00:59):
Yes, we got a friend of the show, Jamie Woodwell, back on the podcast. Jamie is the VP of Research and Economics at MBA.

Adam Hooper (01:08):
Yeah, so Jamie joins us from the Mortgage Bankers Association. We had him on the show back in April to give us a take on early COVID market, what was going on in the space, had him back today to talk about what's changed since then. They recently released their Q2 numbers. So we talk a little bit about what they saw in Q2 and generally an update on where he sees the market right now in the lending world.

Tyler Stewart (01:30):
Yeah, and we know this is a big issue for listeners because we actually had a listener reach out and request that we bring on some guests that we had on early in the COVID days to provide an update on where we're currently at.

Adam Hooper (01:41):
Yeah, so underlying theme here, uncertainty still remains, right? We've talked about that a lot on the show. Still a lot of uncertainty out there. A really interesting concept. He said that they're hearing people, these property camps, right? Some countercyclical, some accelerated, some that have changed forever and then speed bumps. So pay close attention to which asset classes fall into which of those categories. I thought that was a pretty neat categorization of how some of the different asset classes have been impacted by the crisis and how those might look coming out of this on the other side.

Tyler Stewart (02:11):
Yeah, and on a similar note, Jamie broke down which property types lenders are most comfortable lending for right now and which ones they're less comfortable lending for right now. So it gives you a good picture of how the debt world currently views the real estate market.

Adam Hooper (02:25):
The shorter episode today, like Tyler said, this is a… Couple listeners had reached out, suggested that maybe we bring some folks on that we had earlier in the crisis. I think this is a great format. We'll bring some more of this. Let us know if you like this. Send us a note to Of course, we always love those reviews and ratings on iTunes or wherever you listen to this fine show. But with that, Tyler, let's get to it.
Well, Jamie, thank you so much for joining us again here today. We were just talking before we started recording. We were on the show last in April, so very early on, and trying to understand what the heck was going on with this crisis. Now, here we are in October. Curious to get an update from what you guys are seeing out there and just what your forecast is going forward.

Jamie Woodwell (03:19):
Sure, thanks so much. Yeah, and thanks for having me. And it sure seems like in some ways, not a lot has changed, but also a whole lot has changed-

Adam Hooper (03:27):
Yes, it has.

Jamie Woodwell (03:28):
Between back then and now if we look at that first phase we were in, the sort of sudden shock of the pandemic and the economic and social response to it. And we see that bleeding over to the way it's impacted commercial real estate. And we can talk about that some, but certainly the path of the pandemic has changed the virus and the way it's affecting us has changed. And then our economic and social responses have also changed with us sort of seeking that even keel, I guess, of what's the appropriate level of activity, given what the virus is and the way it's spreading.

Adam Hooper (04:14):
And now before we jump in too much for listeners that maybe didn't catch the last episode, just tell us a little bit about Mortgage Bankers Association, what you do there, some of the data that you guys track and put out regularly.

Jamie Woodwell (04:27):
Yeah. Yeah. Thanks so much for that. So the Mortgage Bankers Association is, is a trade group representing the entire real estate finance industry. So everyone involved in the single family mortgage market as well as the commercial and multi-family mortgage market. So trillions and trillions of dollars there in terms of the amount of mortgage debt outstanding, I'm focused on the commercial and multifamily side. So really what's going on in the commercial real estate markets. And then with a particular focus on the mortgage is supporting that. So everything having to do with apartment buildings, office buildings, shopping malls, across the board really everything.

Adam Hooper (05:07):
In an industry that we've heard lots of varying reports of news of how things are going behind the scenes. Yeah?

Jamie Woodwell (05:14):
Yeah, absolutely. And I think the varying reports really bring out the fact that there are varying conditions that if you look at different property types and in the years, and I won't say how many years I've been doing this, but the years I've been involved in the industry, I've never seen such a strong delineation where different property types are really being dramatically impacted in very, very different ways.

Adam Hooper (05:42):
Yeah. Well we'll definitely talk about that here going forward. You guys just recently put out your Q2 report. I'm really curious to hear what you guys and talk about what you found there again, that was right in the brunt of still very early, I guess early part of this pandemic, right. March was kind of the first real sense of a shutdown and April, May were really slow in our world, certainly in the marketplace item. I'm curious what you guys saw with the lending space and originations in early Q2 and then picking into Q3.

Jamie Woodwell (06:17):
Yeah. Great question. And Q2 really was when things hit. We have a tendency to track a lot of commercial multifamily data by quarter, and it makes a lot of sense. And usually the ship is sort of slowing up and turning that that lets you see when there are changes taking place in the market and April, whether we look at originations or loan performance or other things, April was really when you saw the March change and that then carried through much of the second quarter. So the second quarter numbers you see for the economy writ large, as well as commercial real estate are really unlike anything we've seen before. So just on the mortgage lending side, we saw commercial and multi-family mortgage bankers originations down about 48% in Q2 versus where they had been the previous year.
So cut by about half. So real pull back in terms of borrowing and lending during Q2 as a lot of property owners, as about a lot of lenders, sort of hunkered down, tried to assess what was happening in their portfolios. And were focused more on that existing book then than on changes in the book. But it's interesting sort of building off of your comment that when you look at property sales activity, sales activity was down sort of 70 ish percent in Q2 versus a year earlier. So the mortgage market actually held up better, particularly driven by a lot of refinance activity. And that really being concentrated in a lot of the multifamily space.

Adam Hooper (08:05):
And now were those mostly refinancing transactions that were started pre COVID or those were refinances that were started after the crisis had hit trying to maybe shore up a little long-term, more stable position I guess, in the debt markets.

Jamie Woodwell (08:24):
Great question. I think a bit of both definitely you had properties that given the low interest rates in Q1, even that a lot of properties owners were looking to refinance and that those were able to continue in Q2 with particularly the Fannie Mae Freddie Mac FHA driving a lot of that activity. But then also with the rate response to the onset of the pandemic, we were down just at extremely attractive mortgage rates and still are that we're drawing a whole lot of new activity for borrowers who are in a position to take advantage.

Adam Hooper (09:07):
And then we saw it towards the latter half of Q2 starting in June, second half of June, things really start to pick up. July was seemed like that was just an explosion of pent up sales activity to come through. How did the end of Q2 looking into Q3? Do you have any insights on where Q3 might look relative to Q2, hard to get much worse than we saw in Q2, right?

Jamie Woodwell (09:31):
Right. I think we have been seeing a bit of a pickup. You've got lenders who have money to put out and they're working hard and looking for the right deals to make loans. So you've got a lot of availability of debt on the supply side. And I think that the challenge is finding those owners who, and those properties, that are in a good, strong position right now to be able to come in and pencil out. And there are certainly a number out there, but the watch word right now is uncertainty. And with questions about where the pandemic is going to go from here, how that's going to affect different property types. I think that's the one, the biggest friction we continue to see you there is that uncertainty particularly for those property types that weren't immediately and dramatically impacted like retail and hotel.

Adam Hooper (10:31):
Yeah. And how did you see that play out amongst the different types of lenders, whether you got CMBS markets, which again were pretty well frozen, balance sheet, lenders, life companies, debt funds, where did you see the different levels of appetite for activity, I suppose. And then also, how has that changed now versus where we were in Q2?

Jamie Woodwell (10:52):
Right. And I think, yes, we have seen it a shifting as there's been, maybe not more clarity, but there is an opposite of that, less un-clarity, about where we were and the way the pandemic was going to play out. So during the downturn, sort of the depths of that second quarter activity in a lot of ways the closer you were to the capital markets, the more disruption you saw, the more lenders you saw, sort of maybe taking a step back and putting a pause in making new loans.
That's absolutely begun to thaw. And for instance, life insurance companies, a pretty strong appetite there now to meet their allocations for the year to get their money invested. GSEs very active throughout the CMBS market. You've got a host of CMBS lenders who are out there actively courting loans. So we have seen a good thing there. I think you do continue to see some of that strong differentiation where some of the property types like multifamily and industrial, I think a lot of investors, lenders and others feel maybe more comfortable about those than perhaps a retail or a hotel loan, just not quite sure how those properties are going to continue to fair and when the thought comes and how that will impact them.

Adam Hooper (12:34):
Yeah. I think like you had mentioned, there's just still so much uncertainty with some of those asset classes. And again, even in multifamily, right? We've been sending our weekly newsletter and we track pretty closely the NMHC rent collections tracker and it's remained pretty consistent somewhere 150 250 basis points below last year from pretty much the start until now. I think there was a fear that when the extended unemployment benefits ended, that there was going to be a big drop-off there, but it's so far remained pretty consistent with that. So when do you, or I guess, what are you guys watching in terms of some of the indicators of that uncertainty? Are there any things that you guys are looking for that will indicate some, it sounds silly, a greater level of certainty, right? I mean, I think that's a pretty long shot right now, but what are you guys watching or paying attention to from metrics or stats out there right now?

Jamie Woodwell (13:29):
Right. And great question. I think it really varies by property type and you've got different lease structures. You've got different economic drivers that are affecting different properties in different ways. Just taking that multifamily example. I think those NMHC numbers have been really a great resource for the industry and policy makers and others to be able to track some of what's going on. And the fact that they've held up so well, really a testament to the importance of that federal support that came early on in the pandemic, that when we had the labor market disruptions and unemployment up at 14 and a half percent, that we also had a stimulus checks, expanded unemployment insurance and other things that were helping households need those shelter obligations. So each property type having a slightly different view it is funny I think when we've heard people talking about different property types, it seems like there's a variety of different camps that they might put those different property types into.
There's the countercyclical camp, some that I think a lot of people put industrial and self storage, maybe manufactured housing into where the thought is that this is property might actually get a little bit of a tailwind from what's going on in the economy right now. Then there are a whole group of property types or properties that's that folks might talk about as being sort of accelerated where there were changes taking place with that particular property type. And this is speed that up a whole lot. I think a lot of people might put retail in that category. There are the changed our relationship forever and sometimes when people are talking about office you get a little bit of a taste of that.
And then there's a speed bump where sort of a particular property type or property was going along sort of fine before the pandemic hits the recession disrupting that market. But the thought being that afterwards, it'll sort of go back to the way it was. And that might be something that a lot of people put multifamily in the camp of. And probably every property type in property has a little bit of each of those.

Adam Hooper (16:03):

Jamie Woodwell (16:04):
But it's really, to me, it's fascinating the ways we're processing this and really trying to figure out what the implications might be long-term for different types of properties and property types.

Adam Hooper (16:19):
Yeah. And that's something we talked about before, and we've talked about a lot on the show and something just absolutely fascinates me is what are those long-term changes that are going to stick, right? I think you're, for those four camps, countercyclical, accelerated, the changed forever, and the speed bumps. I think that's a great way to group some of those different, like you said, they all have a little bit of that. Office is one though that I just, I have no real conviction around what that goes for going forward, right? And I don't know that anybody does. And we keep hearing tech companies and other companies are just, and we saw, I think was it Thomson Reuters is going to, they're looking at selling part of their headquarters down in Times Square today. We just saw that news. Other ones are saying we're definitely not coming back in 2020, maybe until summer of 2021 until they're going to come back into the offices. That one's a bit of a wild card still. I don't know how that one's going to shake out. It'd be interesting to see though.

Jamie Woodwell (17:15):
Yeah, totally, totally agree. And I think it's got elements of probably all of those things, all of those different categories involved. And I think just within an office space, you'll have the mix of reactions and emotions of people who are comfortable with the telework, maybe partially, you've got people who are desperately wanting and needing to get back to the more collaborative space. So yeah, I think there'll be some really interesting developments there. And I could imagine it being a wash in terms of overall demand.

Adam Hooper (17:55):
Yeah. Yeah. And that's something too, you have less people coming back to the office, but those fewer people needing more space just from a health perspective, right? But maybe that'll roughly even out, we'll see, to be determined.

Jamie Woodwell (18:08):

Adam Hooper (18:09):
So one thing I'm curious on the lender side, earlier on it seemed like there was a very different approach from the lenders compared to the financial crisis in terms of workouts and wanting to just pump the brakes and maybe see how this thing shakes out. How have you seen that dynamic evolve now in this situation, are you seeing more lenders still trying to work out any challenges? Are you seeing more aggressive positions of starting foreclosures or any kind of special servicing proceedings? What does that sentiment like from the lender world right now?

Jamie Woodwell (18:47):
Yeah. So I think you've got a few different things going on. One is that when you look at where the stress in the mortgage market is, it's really coming from retail and hotel, that the, if you look at where delinquencies really jumped in April and May those two just stick out as beacons. And it makes just a lot of sense, right? Those were the two of the leading parts of the economy, where the virus and the shutting down of local economies and our vacations from vacation, all of those ended up hitting squarely in those two property types. And then you look at other property types and the performance has been impacted, but not to anywhere near the degree of retail and lodging. And so that concentrates a lot of the focus into those two areas which then leads to the questions about sort of how long the recession will persist, how long and in what ways it will continue to affect those affected properties.
And then for a lender and servicer, they need to work through to identify sort of what are the prospects for that property? What are the resources that that property owner can bring to bear to support that property, is additional capital needed? Is something else needed? What is it that's going to sort of benefit the value of that property over the long run. And so that takes a bit of time to work through. And I think that's why at the outset you did see a fair amount of action by lenders and servicers saying, "Let's give this a period of time, sort of see where things are in three, six months." And so now with a little bit more clarity, I think those lenders and servicers are starting to work through what are the prospects for the property?
How can they best ensure its long-term survival and value? And so that's I think where we are right now, working through that. It is interesting during the global financial crisis, there was a lot of talk and the use of the phrase, "Extend and pretend." Which wasn't really accurate for what was going on but that a lot of the lenders and servicers looked at the conditions of the properties looked at the cash flows of the properties and decided that the best workout for them was to extend those loans, not to force a repayment in a time when there might not be much liquidity. And that ended up being a pretty good solution. I think for a lot of those properties, this is obviously a very different downturn and there are some properties that are feeling some pretty severe cashflow hits, I think probably more so than during the global financial crisis. So that's what lenders and servicers that are going to be working through with all of those different issues and how to come to the best solution.

Adam Hooper (22:16):
I don't think I heard you put hotels into one of those four buckets yet. Which of those property camps would you put hotels into or is that a change forever or a speed bump?

Jamie Woodwell (22:25):
Well, it's funny. So when, when I was putting things in buckets, I was less using my own thoughts then what I'm hearing people talking about. And I would think that most folks would see hotels as a speed bump that when we get to the other end of this, that people will be going traveling, people will be going on vacations again, there will be business meetings. And it's just a matter of getting from here to there for a lot of those properties.

Adam Hooper (22:56):
Yeah. Once there's a better understanding from the health side of this, right? Some of those old patterns will likely come back. Changes will be there for sure. But in general I think, again, as humans we have short memories and once the immediate threat has passed we'll probably go back to some of those old habits pretty quickly.

Jamie Woodwell (23:14):
Yeah. And it's interesting too, that I made a big point of the differentiation amongst the different property types. And it's a little bit fractal because then within each property type you've got different subtypes that are all behaving differently. And in the hotel sector, the economy and sort of working hotels have been fairing far better than the luxury hotels in terms of [inaudible 00:23:43] par and some other indicators. So really every property sort of needs to be assessed on its own basis. It seems.

Adam Hooper (23:50):
Yeah. So what are some of the things that are keeping you up at night? Are there any metrics out there that are concerning to you or things that you have an eye on that are in a yellow or red zone, that maybe aren't looking so positive right now?

Jamie Woodwell (24:07):
I guess the thing in particularly sitting in my research seat where sort of I'm supposed to have a couple of answers for things. The biggest challenge is the uncertainty and there's both plus side and minus side to that, but there really isn't a whole lot of certainty about where we go from here and how long different hits to the economy might last, the different ways it might either clear up or not. So that's a challenge I think that a lot of us are running through right now is trying to look around the corner at a time when it's a little bit, I don't even know how to continue the analogy of looking around the corner when it's a little bit foggy to mix a couple of metaphors there. But that to me is the challenge. But again that I think creates us opportunities as well as risks.

Adam Hooper (25:11):
Are there any international markets that you guys track? I'm just curious for some other geographies that might be a little bit further along in they're dealing with a health crisis and recovery post crisis that you guys have seen any trends or anything around the world that maybe would be an indicator of how things might look.

Jamie Woodwell (25:33):
Yeah, that's a good one and I'm not sure. So we've been, and I in particular have been very much domestically focused-

Adam Hooper (25:40):
There's enough to focus on here.

Jamie Woodwell (25:41):
[crosstalk 00:25:41] you [inaudible 00:25:41] inside the US.

Adam Hooper (25:44):
Yeah. So as, I guess as you start to peer around that foggy corner, what are some of the opportunities now going forward, maybe? I mean do we have any more light into what those opportunities might be then when we talked in April? Do we have a better understanding of how some of these dynamics have played out that might indicate where you can find some opportunity going forward?

Jamie Woodwell (26:07):
I think that's what is started to evolve more. And to your point, why now we're starting to see maybe a little bit of a pickup in some transaction activity and people willing to make a play is that I think people have gotten a little bit more comfortable with maybe the up and downside limits and where they're willing to take some risks. If back in April we were at a 14 and a half percent unemployment rate, and now we're down at 7.9. That is a pretty strong indicator of I think comfort that maybe things may not get quickly better, or we may not see that same pace of improvement, but that we're headed in that direction. So that I think brings a lot more comfort to putting money at work. So I think that that's probably the biggest piece now is that there's not great certainty, but there's more certainty. And the range of uncertainty is far more limited than it was before.

Adam Hooper (27:22):
Yeah. Less uncertainty, like you said, it's not necessarily certain, but it's less uncertain than it was six, seven months ago. For sure.

Jamie Woodwell (27:31):

Adam Hooper (27:33):
And so I guess from the lending side, are you seeing anything, or it maybe it's still too much in the middle of this, are you seeing anything in terms of underwriting or how lenders are looking at collateral or process from the lender side, that might be one of those longer-term changes that sticks around, or is the fundamental analysis and everything from the lender side of what they look for in a property or look for in a loan or a borrower, has that remained relatively consistent?

Jamie Woodwell (28:04):
I think it has stayed relatively consistent that that lenders have been through a number of different downturns. And one thing we've looked at is how different the 2001 recession was from the global financial crisis to this one. All driven by different factors, all very different shapes, and all impacting different commercial real estate in different ways. But I think through all of those the fundamental approach that lenders have taken to making a loan backed by a commercial property has sort of born out. I guess the one thing that would be a little bit different now, and this might get back to this speed bump a little bit is lenders I think are working on two different dimensions.
One is when we get past this sort of what's that property going to look like, is it a property that I can, that can support a loan? And then the other is making sure that we, that loan in that property get from here to there. And so that's a little bit additive and that second part, which might include things like debt service reserves and other mechanisms. I think that's probably a new element, but I think it's also more likely to be a temporary element that just as a bridge to getting us back to after this, after the speed bump, when that traditional approach to lending sort of is fully relied on.

Adam Hooper (29:47):
Yeah, I mean in the financial crisis, there was a pretty dramatic change to underwriting standards, post and pre right. Once that we got through that, and we started to get back into more of a normal environment loan to value ratios, debt service coverage ratios, debt yields, everything was far, far, far more conservative than it was going into it. Do you see a similar outcome here, or do you think it will be more, I guess back to quote unquote normal pre COVID. Once we get through this crisis and start to see more of that certainty of return, we already think there will be some bigger fundamental shifts in some of those underwriting metrics.

Jamie Woodwell (30:28):
My hunch, and this is purely a hunch is that what'll be born out here, is that a lot of the underwriting approach that was done pre COVID will sort of be, will be validated that the concept and rough levels of DSCR and LTV sort of continue to make sense. There's again, a pretty long history of loan performance to look back at, and this will now add to it, right? So it will be additional information that lenders can look to to assess how loans perform in different situations. It's interesting going back to pre global financial crisis, at that point the markets, and particularly on the equity side, were so competitive. If you look at where cap rates and cap rates spreads were in property values, that that was, that that market was really being driven by this incredibly competitive market to put money into commercial real estate.
And I think what you saw after in response to the global financial crisis, and afterwards was a bit of a recalibration from those incredibly tight cap rate levels and other things to what was probably a more traditional reversion to the mean meeting period. Here prior to this downturn, if you look at cap rate spreads and other measures, we weren't nearly at that competitive of a level. So I think there's less reversion to the main that is likely to happen. Does that make some sense?

Adam Hooper (32:20):
Yeah, definitely. I think we've talked about this on the show. We, the real estate industry entered this crisis in a much healthier, more normalized spot than what we saw going into the global financial crisis. So the ability again, that's obviously very much product type specific, but the ability to weather this, get through it, in return back to more… Again, I guess the swing from pre and post COVID should be much less dynamic than the swing pre and post global financial crisis.

Jamie Woodwell (32:54):
I think that that makes a lot of sense. And again, every downturn has been different. And I think one thing that'll be interesting coming out of this one, the global financial crisis, there was a hit to property income, but there was a much bigger hit to property valuations as investors reassessed, again those cap rates and the way they should be valuing that cashflow. Thus far, and again focused primarily on retail and hotel, the hits there are going to be sort of in this first period significantly on the income side. And so that means on the one hand that once we're past this, those can bounce back and be back at their sort of running levels when the economy comes back. And again, we'll see how temporary therefore the long-term impacts of that will be.

Adam Hooper (33:53):
Well, as we wrap up here, I know we talked about the Q2 report you guys put out. Any preview or any juicy tidbits from what you guys saw as we closed out Q3 just recently that you can maybe sprinkle a little insight into?

Jamie Woodwell (34:08):
So we're getting those numbers right now. So we'll be seeing in the next few weeks with what those numbers show. Again I think one of the keys that we saw in Q2 that I expect we'll continue to have some momentum in Q3 was just in the market at large, how much of the activity was focused on multifamily and that's on the debt side, an awful lot of borrowers looking at market conditions and saying, this is a great time to go get financing on a property. Of given how low rates are and some of the competitiveness in the market. And I do think that's now probably going to start spreading out to other property types as well. Again, for those that can show a good strong case for their incomes and values going forward.

Adam Hooper (35:04):
Okay, well we'll be sure to get you back once we get some of those numbers out and then any forecast do you want to go on record for as we head into Q4 here?

Jamie Woodwell (35:14):
So we put out a forecast back in July, which we said at the time was a combination of hubris and folly to be trying to forecast at this point and time. And the expectations were that we'd probably see this year's originations activity for commercial and multifamily down by about 60% and multifamily down by about 40%. So we'll probably be updating that in the next month or so, but right now, again our expectation is that that lending, borrowing and lending, is going to be holding up a little bit better than sales transactions activities this year. But that both will be taking a hit, given everything going on.

Adam Hooper (36:03):
Okay. Well Jamie, why don't you let everybody know how they can find out more about what you're up to, and then we'll put these links all in the show notes as well.

Jamie Woodwell (36:12):
Sounds great. Yeah. So all of our reports and information are up on the web at And then if you want to get straight to the research side you can do slash crefresearch, C R E F research, all one word. And always happy to hear from folks and answer any questions or have a conversation about what's going on in the market.

Adam Hooper (36:33):
Perfect. Well Jamie, that's a great point to end on. We've got resources there for everybody to go to, talked about Q2, would love to have you back on as we get Q3 numbers squared away. And thank you again for coming on the show as always.

Jamie Woodwell (36:47):
Oh, thanks for having me. Always enjoy the conversation.

Adam Hooper (36:49):
Great. Well listeners, that's all we've got for today. Send us a note to with any questions or feedback. And with that, we'll catch you on the next one.

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